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Thread: Hypothetical topic for rambling discussion

  1. #1
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    Bang Head Hypothetical topic for rambling discussion

    SeaPower description
    Attached is a diagram that details a new energy generating power source using the expanding rise of air underwater as a lifting force.

    This is the same principal that keeps a boat afloat.

    In the diagram, there is a linear row of balloons. The lower balloon or inverted umbrella; is injected with 300 cubic feet of air compressed to 18 ATM resulting in a volume of 16.66 cubic feet of air.
    When the first balloon rises 99 feet (3 ATM) a second balloon attached to the first one is injected with 300 cubic feet of air compressed to 16.66 cubic feet of air.
    In the diagram provided this process is repeated having five (5) balloons rising. The upper balloon at 3 ATM has a lifting force of 6.400 pounds
    The next balloon at 6 ATM has a lifting force of 3,200 pounds
    The next balloon at 9 ATM has a rising force of 2,133 pounds
    The next balloon at 12 ATM has a lifting force of 1,600 pounds
    The next balloon at 15 ATM has a lifting force of 1,080 pounds
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Total pulling force is a continuous lifting force of 14,413 pounds
    This mechanical process can be converted to electrical output.
    If it takes less power to keep the system running than the output created; then this is a positive idea. If not; this is a dead horse with nowhere to go.
    See diagram in next post.
    Comments pro or con are welcome

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    Technical Fellow jboggs's Avatar
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    It seems to me you are completely ignoring the energy required to compress and deliver the air to the balloons in question. Have you done a thermodynamic analysis of your process? How is this any different from pumping water up a hill so you can extract energy from it as it returns?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jboggs View Post
    Have you done a thermodynamic analysis of your process?
    No
    Quote Originally Posted by jboggs View Post
    How is this any different from pumping water up a hill so you can extract energy from it as it returns?
    No, you have cracked the egg.
    This is not like a water wheel where each vain is hit with water and it is the impact energy is consumed.
    Instead of a water wheel “flap” that just reflects, these balloons retain the upward energy in an expanding bubble of air until it reaches the surface.

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    SeaPower description
    Attached is a diagram that details a new energy generating power source using the expanding rise of air underwater as a lifting force.
    This is the same principal that keeps a boat afloat.
    In the diagram, there is a linear row of balloons. The lower balloon or inverted umbrella; is injected with 300 cubic feet of air compressed to 18 ATM resulting in a volume of 16.66 cubic feet of air.
    When the first balloon rises 99 feet (3 ATM) a second balloon attached to the first one is injected with 300 cubic feet of air compressed to 16.66 cubic feet of air.
    In the diagram provided this process is repeated having five (5) balloons rising. The upper balloon at 3 ATM has a lifting force of 6.400 pounds
    The next balloon at 6 ATM has a lifting force of 3,200 pounds
    The next balloon at 9 ATM has a rising force of 2,133 pounds
    The next balloon at 12 ATM has a lifting force of 1,600 pounds
    The next balloon at 15 ATM has a lifting force of 1,080 pounds
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Total pulling force is a continuous lifting force of 14,413 pounds
    This mechanical process can be converted to electrical output.

  6. #6
    Administrator Kelly Bramble's Avatar
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    There's no new energy created, in fact the energy produced is negative. Balloons have to be placed in position, compressed air injected and then energy extracted.

    You cannot get more energy out of system than you put in.
    Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.

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    The only difference here is that the lifting energy of one balloon is combined with other balloons creating more power than just one. This is the multiplier effect.

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    Principle Engineer Cragyon's Avatar
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    "If it takes less power to keep the system running than the output created; then this is a positive idea. If not; this is a dead horse with nowhere to go."

    It's a dead horse - I suppose if one could get the density right inside the balloons then you could have a slow acting Galileo Thermometer equivalent. Look, you need energy in to get energy out and you always lose energy doing some work.

  9. #9
    Administrator Kelly Bramble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markzboyce View Post
    The only difference here is that the lifting energy of one balloon is combined with other balloons creating more power than just one. This is the multiplier effect.
    No energy extracted.

    Energy in - Energy lose (friction, temperature, etc) = less energy out.

    This is a fundamental laws of physics you cannot create energy only change it from form to another.
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    Quote Originally Posted by markzboyce View Post
    SeaPower description
    Attached is a diagram that details a new energy generating power source using the expanding rise of air underwater as a lifting force.
    This is the same principal that keeps a boat afloat.
    In the diagram, there is a linear row of balloons. The lower balloon or inverted umbrella; is injected with 300 cubic feet of air compressed to 18 ATM resulting in a volume of 16.66 cubic feet of air.
    When the first balloon rises 99 feet (3 ATM) a second balloon attached to the first one is injected with 300 cubic feet of air compressed to 16.66 cubic feet of air.
    In the diagram provided this process is repeated having five (5) balloons rising. The upper balloon at 3 ATM has a lifting force of 6.400 pounds
    The next balloon at 6 ATM has a lifting force of 3,200 pounds
    The next balloon at 9 ATM has a rising force of 2,133 pounds
    The next balloon at 12 ATM has a lifting force of 1,600 pounds
    The next balloon at 15 ATM has a lifting force of 1,080 pounds
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Total pulling force is a continuous lifting force of 14,413 pounds
    This mechanical process can be converted to electrical output.
    Please be specific, what is wrong with the above?
    The increasing lifting force is multiplied creating more energy output at any one moment in time.

  11. #11
    Principle Engineer Cragyon's Avatar
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    con·ser·va·tion of en·er·gy (noun)
    a principle stating that energy cannot be created or destroyed, but can be altered from one form to another.

    You're not creating energy your exchanging one form into another. It will never create more energy then what is put into it.

    The original source of energy is that which inflates the balloons which then creates the buoyancy.

  12. #12
    Administrator Kelly Bramble's Avatar
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    Just a fancy lifting apparatus to perhaps lift a sunken ship.
    Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.

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    Technical Fellow jboggs's Avatar
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    markzboyce, You're asking for specifics. What you are missing is this: Calculations of the energy required to compress the air and to deliver it to the point below the surface of the water to release into a balloon. That is the energy that Kelly and others are referring to.

    Expansion of compressed air does release energy, but not as much as it took to compress it in the first place. That's why motors running compressors get hot. That is the energy lost in the work of compressing of the air, and it is an unavoidable thermodynamic fact of God's universe.

    The fact that you have multiple balloons might be innovative, but it doesn't repeal that basic thermodynamic law. It just means you have multiple expenditures of the energy to compress the air in all those balloons.

    This is not meant to stifle your creativity. It is just a dispassionate engineering analysis of your proposed energy system. Please keep thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jboggs View Post
    This is not meant to stifle your creativity. It is just a dispassionate engineering analysis of your proposed energy system. Please keep thinking.
    You and others here still do not understand what I a saying. The point I am trying to make is the energy output at any one moment in time. If it takes (X) amount of energy to get in return (Y) output then getting an continuous output of (Y)+(Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y) is greater than one (1). Here is another way of looking at it.
    If I drop a 10 lbs. brick from a two-story building it will exert an energy impact of (X).
    If again drop a 10 lbs. brick from a two-story building it will exert an energy impact of (X).
    If again drop a 10 lbs. brick from a two-story building it will exert an energy impact of (X).
    If again drop a 10 lbs. brick from a two-story building it will exert an energy impact of (X).
    If again drop a 10 lbs. brick from a two-story building it will exert an energy impact of (X).

    The energy exerted to the ground remains the same (X).

    If I instead drop 50 lbs. brick to the ground the energy delivered is five (5) times greater.
    Yes/no-?

  15. #15
    Administrator Kelly Bramble's Avatar
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    You still have to take the bricks up to the second floor BEFORE you drop them.

    Energy in = Elevating the bricks

    Energy out = dropping them.

    The bricks do not magically elevate themselves nor do the balloons sink themselves.

    There is always energy put in to get energy out.

    Again, and again and again this is a conservation of energy discussion.
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